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Postby bdub » Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:11 am

I'm very pragmatic... I believe we will not be able to combat man-made global warming because people like the Koch bros. buy elections (which has been less successful for them lately, at least on the national scale). look at how solyndra was quashed. our best chances to increase science in the areas of clean energy are constantly put down by one means or another, and the media does nothing to find out the true reasons why this is.
you get one company, one time have an issue and supposedly cost public money... then the whole industry is back-burned. it takes science to get new energy sources started, and politicians backed by one side or another find ways to gum that up, on purpose to keep the status quo until they can find a way to corner the market and make as much money as possible.

you want to cast aside the evidence and call on the stuff we may not see... okay. it's true that observed data means a lot more... but there is plenty of fossil record to make intelligent hypothesis and correlations, and every fiber of my being says this has to be true.
my link about 99.99% of scientists agree global warming is manmade got zero traction. instead you want to argue the fine details of the sixth mass extinction where you don't use the facts we see, but want to dwell on the possibilities of facts we can't see!?
ridiculous.
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Postby evasive » Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:16 am

on purpose to keep the status quo until they can find a way to corner the market and make as much money as possible.


sugar/stevia
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what is the difference? You can't tax plants properly...
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Postby Roach412 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:36 pm

i told you, until there's something better, cheaper and easier human nature will not change. it's pure, simple, human nature. i'm not arguing anything here that hasn't been tested and trialed a half million times before. these are simple and observable human traits that have existed since humans have.

where am i casting aside any evidence? i'm calling the evidence incomplete. therefore any output using such evidence is incomplete and therefore wrong in the world of science - the very thing you claim to abide by. invalid input provides invalid output. the evidence going in is flawed, so the output is flawed. however you want to try and spin it, does not matter.

not to mention who cares if 99.99% of scientists say it's caused by humans? does that make it true?
99.99% of scientists believed humans were a distinct species(and most believed were only ~4000 years old...)
99.99% of scientists thought the world was flat(and had an end).
99.99% of scientists thought the earth was the center of the universe.
99.99% of scientists thought the earth was solid rock.
99.99% of scientists thought the earth was expanding in size.

....hundreds(thousands?) of times scientists have been 99.99% in lock-step about a theory, and been proven wrong(some on epic grand scales of completely wrong it's laughable in hindsight, like above)...but they didn't know any better because the information they had at the time was incomplete. do you see a trend here? do you see how many times science has been completely wrong about our planet - mostly because of our human ignorance and flawed self-belief? thinking we, in our "advanced scientific" place in time, can't make similar massive blunders is just too simple of a trap to fall into.

and the koch brothers? a drop in the proverbial bucket if people organized around a common banner. so what if those two have billions of dollars? there's millions of people that could overcome that amount when pooled together, if you want to say pure $ for $ equalling power. the koch's have(in technical terms) 2 votes...americans alone have over 100 million. the world over? tens of millions more. that's a lot of voices to drown...but they aren't even drowning them, they don't have to. people literally just do not care.

this is a problem that has so little potential of success that humans will not follow a hard solution for it. human nature in the way, again. an even larger problem? people argue. the koch's are two, very precisely-focused individuals. put 100 million people together and guess what they all agree on? nothing. absolutely nothing. so, we have a few doing "this" and some doing "that" and none of it very well focused. just a bunch of people doing random little things that don't amount to much of anything besides a reduced feeling of shame, guilt and regret for contributing to the problem of simply being human in our current society.

call that rediculous. but the truth is typically more rediculous-sounding than what we want to believe.

seriously, all i can recommend is to take a step back to try to change your perspective, and re-try approaching the problem. i've done it multiple times, and i've changed my outlook over time...not just on this topic, but on many. in another 6 months maybe i'll do a 180 on it. then again in 10 years... that's one beautiful human trait, re-identification, re-creating who you are and what you believe, the ability to change and re-evaluate ones self.

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Postby bdub » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:24 am

"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."
- Max Planck


so you compare scientists from the middle ages with scientists of today? I guess you think the abacus was nearly as powerful as the computer, too, huh?
99.9% of scientists have flawed thinking. none of them can make a reasonable assumption because (of your interpretation that they have) incomplete data... you believe that, alright, so it goes.

but you mis-underestimate the power of what "citizens united" has done to our political system... the kochs weild far more influence than you want to comprehend, it seems. you can think in your pure minded way that they only have two votes between them, but the real world works in a very different way.

in ten years it would be great to be able to come back to this post and revisit our positions!

here's the latest story... I'm sure some will call "propaganda".
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/ ... ml?hpid=z1
here's a synopsis style quote I picked...
---
Michael Oppenheimer, a professor of geosciences and international affairs at Princeton University and one of the report’s authors, said: “There is a more optimistic tone about our ability to adapt to some of these things. We’ve had some bad heat waves and coastal storms, and we have a better idea of what we need to do. Whether we will ever do it, I don’t know.”

But he cautioned that “everyone agrees that if we don’t slow the warming down, our prospects for adaptation are not good.”...

...The report reiterated warnings that world leaders and businesses must act to slow climate change, not just adapt to it. “Increasing magnitudes of warming increase the likelihood of severe, pervasive, and irreversible impacts,” the report said. It said that some of the warming could have “cascading effects.”

The report attached a “medium confidence” rating to some of those events, but it highlighted the danger of “abrupt and irreversible regional-scale change” if high temperatures hurt the ability of the Arctic boreal tundra or the Amazon forest to store carbon dioxide, or sped the collapse of a continental ice sheet.

---

and a feew choices from readers comments I thought apropos.
"What are you Faux News folks waiting for? Enter your anti-science, anti-knowledge, anti-Obama rants! Complain about the UN, complain about the government, complain about liberals, hell, just come on and complain! Facts are facts and no matter how you deflect, we as humans consuming vast amounts of energy, do create a significant contribution to climate change (or, less PC, global warming)! Deal with it!!"

"Very carefully… Very slowly….. No one is claiming that climate (change) did not exist before greenhouse gases.
No one is claiming that climate cycles didn't exist before humans existed.
The claim is that greenhouse gases and their volume produce independent effects on the rate of change and the magnitude of change. For that the models have been quite correct, although precise or place-specific modeling is more difficult.
Finally, the risks are in doing nothing, which if incorrect can be reversed. On the other hand the consequences of doing nothing cannot be reversed and could be catastrophic.
The rational, conservative thing would be to exercise caution, and not yell, "Full throttle up!" "
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Postby Karlsweldt » Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:57 am

Per a recent Bloomberg Report, the United Nations has issued an alarming note about 'global warming' and its possible effects.
In so many words or less, "Unless we all start to take reign of the problem, there may be dire consequences for all.. as potable water shortages, food shortages, and extreme weather anomalies. "
Indeed, a strong political influence is a primary element.. mainly for profit, and control of resources that should belong to everyone.

"Our place is not to waste.. what can sustain us."
F@H.. to solve mankind's maladies.. in our lifetimes!
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Postby Roach412 » Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:30 am

bdub wrote:so you compare scientists from the middle ages with scientists of today? I guess you think the abacus was nearly as powerful as the computer, too, huh?

yes, i do compare them. because they are exactly the same animal, only able to make informed decision/hypothesis on valid information. and i believe the abacus was more powerful than the computer in terms of scientific importance than a modern computer. it made our current science possible, so, yes...it's more powerful.

bdub wrote:99.9% of scientists have flawed thinking. none of them can make a reasonable assumption because (of your interpretation that they have) incomplete data... you believe that, alright, so it goes.

it's not an interpretation. i'm not interpreting anything..and the scientists in the report you linked all agree they don't have all the facts and figures. why do you think they stick "confidence" ratings on their projections? if they have all the answers and KNOW all the data then they can provide more than just "very high/high/medium/low" confidence ratings. and scientist thinking isn't flawed, their data is...and they know it. there's a huge distinction here that you're misdirecting around.

bdub wrote:but you mis-underestimate the power of what "citizens united" has done to our political system... the kochs weild far more influence than you want to comprehend, it seems. you can think in your pure minded way that they only have two votes between them, but the real world works in a very different way.

you again misdirect. it's not pure-minded, it's understanding the human nature/condition. people don't care about the koch's influence because it's hard to fight it...so people just don't. therefore providing their influence. it's less of them getting what they want, and more of people just not caring that they get it. call it enabling.

bdub wrote:in ten years it would be great to be able to come back to this post and revisit our positions!

i agree, and i do actually go back to my posts on just about all the sites i've ever used and look at the old stuff i've posted over the years. some i've been remarkably spot-on, others completely off. then i re-evaluate(see my prior post) and move forward with new/improved thought process and understanding.

i haven't read the entire UN report, so i'll stay away from commenting on the short piece covering it. it's a 40-page summary report just for policymakers, so a 12 or 14 paragraph piece kind of cherry picks details a little too much for me. the full report is somewhere around 75mb...and i kind of want to read it all.

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Postby bdub » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:12 am

funny to hear so much talk about the fact we don't know how to measure what kind of damage we are doing, compared to samples from eons ago, to the environment, and therefore the conclusion is made that we aren't doing any ourselves... then you see stories like this that we can't even reliably measure what kind of emissions we are releasing now...

KEEP YOUR BLINDERS ON, BUDDIES... Won't be long you'll have to see the light.


http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/0 ... estimated/
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Postby Karlsweldt » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:44 am

Methane gas (CH4) is one of the major gasses in our atmosphere, along with carbon dioxide, nitrogen and oxygen. It is naturally produced by any form of decaying vegetation, and from the digestion process of ruminants. It is also released from gas or oil wells, and from coal mining. Yes, it is considered a major cause of "greenhouse warming".
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemi ... s/ch4.html
When high pressure is applied to the gas, plus very low temperature, it changes state to a liquid or semi-solid.. commonly classed as 'hydrates'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_%28data_page%29
The gas can be absorbed by bodies of water, and can become heavier in atomic weight than the water molecules.. sinking to the sediment layer. When this sediment layer is disturbed, the gas is released and bubbles to the surface.. presenting a suffocating or fire hazard.
"Swamp fire" is an event where the gas may spontaneously ignite, due to high static voltages, or high temperatures.. and has the proper ratio of gas and oxygen.
While sequestration processes can reduce the emission of methane at oil or gas wells, what about all the ruminants on dairy farms? Some people have proposed "gas bags" for cows, to contain the methane gas and retail it!!
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Postby Roach412 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:17 am

funny to hear so much talk about the fact we don't know how to measure what kind of damage we are doing, compared to samples from eons ago, to the environment, and therefore the conclusion is made that we aren't doing any ourselves... then you see stories like this that we can't even reliably measure what kind of emissions we are releasing now...


what's funny is this kind of information backs up my viewpoint of what's happening.

so the EPA has been estimating possibly hundreds or thousands of times BELOW what they thought we were pumping into the air, yet...why wasn't this noticed in some measurable swing in environmental data? possibly because we make wild assumptions on what we've labled greenhouse gases actually contribute to the climate...? possibly because these experts make wild assumptions on what they believe they understand about nature...? possibly because we're really not that smart...? there's hundreds of possibilities, and ignoring them doesn't make them go away.

having such significant "missed contributions" to the "causes" of climate change points out exactly the fact that a very large number of "experts", are speculating. this chunk of missing data contributes to invalidating their previous projections. what other massive miscalculations/missed data are they making assumptions about that they don't know of, or just plain didn't understand?
my guess, more than 2. :lol:
probably hundreds.
possibly thousands.

i'm excessively using quotation for emphasis, but, i can't emphasize enough the fact that they were missing (quite significant) piece of data within their models. missing data provides WRONG results.

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Postby bdub » Mon May 12, 2014 12:37 pm

so go on with the status quo, then. nothing to worry about here. move along.

.....
you certainly would have gotten us to the moon.
future generations are @#$! with that thinking.
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