Somthing I have been wondering about for some time now.

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Somthing I have been wondering about for some time now.

Postby tribaloverkill » Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:51 pm

I am just getting back into web design after taking a nice long break from it. Now,... I use to do it alot and I was pretty damn good too BUT, my cross browser capabilites were kinda sluggish. I think because of the fact that I didnt really wanted to code for older browsers beacause well, older browsers suck. Also,... I didnt know how to check to see if my code would even work with older browsers. I know most books tell you what works in certain bowers and version but these books dont tell you how each version and browser renders stuff. I thing I remeber is that IE and NN render border width differently. I think IE uses some of the width of the layer to accomodate(sp?) the border, example, your layer width is 100px and then you specify a border of 5px. IE will subtract 10px from height and width of the layer then add a 5px border all the way around. This way the layer overall height and width is still 100px. Now NN is completely the opposite, where NN wont touch the layers height and width and will just add the 5px border so the overall height and width would be 110px. You see? Now my question is,... how do you check you design so that it is rendering properly for older browsers? I know how to check for different browser but not sure about older browsers? It not like I can just download them.
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Postby MoboCop » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:48 pm

The way to check for cross browser compatibility is to download the browsers you want to verify and view the page in each of them.

Tweak code liberally, then check again.

If you want to validate your html and css you can use the w3c validators.

If you go to motherboards.org home page and scroll to the bottom area you will find links to each.

I recommend that you get into css and xhtml try some tableless designing.
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Postby tribaloverkill » Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:07 am

Well,... I have Dreamweaver MX and it has a validator. Within the validator I could validate my code for,... the different HTML's I not sure of the version,.. I think HTML2.0, HTML3.0, and HTML4.0? I think I also saw IE3 and up but what I didnt see was NN. I not quite sure how the validator works. I am guessing that it goes through my code and tells me if I used something that is not valid. But the thing is that will it show me what it looks like rendered? If not how do I get a copy of an older browser?
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Postby MoboCop » Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:11 am

tribaloverkill wrote:Well,... I have Dreamweaver MX and it has a validator. Within the validator I could validate my code for,... the different HTML's I not sure of the version,.. I think HTML2.0, HTML3.0, and HTML4.0? I think I also saw IE3 and up but what I didnt see was NN. I not quite sure how the validator works. I am guessing that it goes through my code and tells me if I used something that is not valid. But the thing is that will it show me what it looks like rendered? If not how do I get a copy of an older browser?


screw the old browsers. Get yourself the latest versions of IE, netscape, opera, and firefox.

The validdators I use are from w3c (which is the web standards group).

The validators work based on the doctype you list at the top of your page. Basically tells the validator what code base to check against.

I personally use xhtml 1.0 strict. Use CSS for all layout.
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Postby tribaloverkill » Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:00 am

I use to use tables all the time. I love tables. But CSS as you said seems to be the thing now. I know CSS very well so I won't have a problem using it. So you think I should just bnlow off the older browsers? I think I will do that seeing that I do not like the older browsers at all. I'll get the other browsers as you mentioned. I new that I had to get the other browsers but I just wasnt sure about the older ones. Thanks for your help. I have to read up on XHTML. Is that the same as DHTML?
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Postby MoboCop » Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:56 am

tribaloverkill wrote:I use to use tables all the time. I love tables. But CSS as you said seems to be the thing now. I know CSS very well so I won't have a problem using it. So you think I should just bnlow off the older browsers? I think I will do that seeing that I do not like the older browsers at all. I'll get the other browsers as you mentioned. I new that I had to get the other browsers but I just wasnt sure about the older ones. Thanks for your help. I have to read up on XHTML. Is that the same as DHTML?


No, dhtml is not very cross browser compatible. xhtml is the latest html standard. HTML is moving towards an xml standard. xhtml is a bridge on the way there.

The nice thing about css for layouts is that is is very easy to design pages that degrade decently in the old 4.0 browsers. Basically all the content is still visible and readable, it is just minus the layout.

W3C world wide web consortium

http://www.w3.org/

links to various specs on different version of html

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/

links to css spec

http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/
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Postby tribaloverkill » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:15 pm

I went over to W3.org an did some reading about XHTML,... and I just didnt get it 8O. I have to go back and read some more or something. I was reading the XHTML rules and it was so confusing 8O. So many work arounds,... how many people actually use XHTML? Not all browsers support it? XHTLM looks like alot of excess coding to me. Like when specifing an internal style sheet,... you have to type all this other stuff out just to add some style. I have to go to the book store and check some books out. I'm just lost about it. Why use XHTML if there is XML? You said XHTML is the bridge from HTML to XML,... why take the bridge? How about making a jump :? ?
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Postby MoboCop » Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:45 pm

tribaloverkill wrote:I went over to W3.org an did some reading about XHTML,... and I just didnt get it 8O. I have to go back and read some more or something. I was reading the XHTML rules and it was so confusing 8O. So many work arounds,... how many people actually use XHTML? Not all browsers support it? XHTLM looks like alot of excess coding to me. Like when specifing an internal style sheet,... you have to type all this other stuff out just to add some style. I have to go to the book store and check some books out. I'm just lost about it. Why use XHTML if there is XML? You said XHTML is the bridge from HTML to XML,... why take the bridge? How about making a jump :? ?


because browsers dont read straight xml as web pages.

The main difference between xhtml and html is very simple actually. Just a few rules.

all tags must be lowercase
all tags must be closed. examples <p> </p> <br /> <hr />
you must use a doctype

That covers the basic differences. Some attributes have been depreciated.

As for styling that is the real power of CSS. You can either do inline styling as follows

<div style="font-size: 12px">

but the better way is to use an external style sheet. For this I use two different methods of referring to style sheet sections. Classes and IDs

IDs are unique(can only be referred to once on a page) so I use them for positioning. Classes can be used multiple times. So I use these for styles.

I acutally use three style sheets on motherboards.org. One for the layout, one for the menu styling, and one for the rest of the site styling.

If you want to view xhtml in action just view the source from the main motherboards.org page.

Another nice benefit of stylesheets for positioning is you can order your source however you want (so content is first in source for search engines, and ads and menus come last on page).

Anyway I am rambling now...
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Postby tribaloverkill » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:49 pm

Your not rambling!!! I love it! Very informative! The way W3C was explaining it made it very confusing. I really need to get a book on it. I have a ton of books on regular HTML, Javascript, and CSS. Learning XHTML shouldnt be hard seeing that I know most of regular HTML already. Right now I am learning Perl. It's not all that hard seeing that I know Javascript. They are very simular. Once you know the logic behind programming learning the languages is fairly easy. The only thing you are really learning is the syntax. When I use to create websites,... I never really finished them. I never really had a site up and running. I created them as a learning experience. As I made one ideas for another would come along. By creating all these site I learned how to make them smaller and more efficient. I was a nut when it came down to size and efficiency. It drove me nuts becuase there was so much I wanted to do but the more I did it became larger and more power hungry. I loved dynamically positioning objects! The last thing I was working on was a hierarchy menu. I finished one but then began to recode the whole thing to make it smaller, faster, and more customizable! I think the favorite part about making that menu was build a hierachy of my own objects. The second or was it third? the second or third time around I figured out a way of building a massive, and when I say massive I mean MASSIVE, hierarchy of menu objects. Each object had its own set of properties, a TON of properties, that the user could use to tweak the menu to how they see fit for their site. The amount of properties was pretty much the entirety of CSS, LOL. Anyways, I would specify the script the build a single menu with LOAD of links, link descriptions, and submenus. The script built this massive hierarchy right before my eyes within a second or two. It was great. Anyways I am rambling now,... I'm going to read now. Bye! I will check out the motherboard.org source to get an idea. Thanks!
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Postby MoboCop » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:53 pm

try php instead of perl, much more user friendly for designing web sites.

As for smaller code...CSS and xhtml are great for that. Get rid of the bloating associated with using tables for layouts.

The new tab based menu on the top of the forums is completely xhtml and css driven. No images. I use php to dynamically decide what second level menu to show based on what section of the site you are in. It is fast and small.
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