[IDENTIFIED!]Identify the board, need manual: 386/387, SIS

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Re: [IDENTIFIED!]Identify the board, need manual: 386/387, S

Postby Karlsweldt » Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:35 am

Sounds like progress! Older boards like that had only a keyboard port. Most later 386 designs did have the standard array of ports. Only with a 16-bit multi-port I/O device card, would you get all the needed features. For a mouse, optical drive or other feature, command lines must be in the base system files (config.sys, autoexec.bat).
You want to free up as much of the base 640 KB memory as possible for programming to work. Device commands can move to the upper segment in the remainder of that first 1 MB of system memory.
Two commands in the config.sys file would provide for that. DEVICE: HIMEM.SYS and DEVICE: EMM386.EXE /NOEMS.
There still may be DOS drivers for that 3COM card, at http://list.driverguide.com/list/DOS/co ... index.html .
Don't trust all sites to be free of malware and other nasty bugs.
Data transfer would be best if using a program such as Lap Link® or similar, via the LPT port, initially.
DOS 6.22 does have limitations, may be better if you copy out the similar commands from a Win 98SE version to use.
Good luck with it.
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Re: [IDENTIFIED!]Identify the board, need manual: 386/387, S

Postby Taro1234 » Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:43 am

Karlsweldt wrote:Only with a 16-bit multi-port I/O device card, would you get all the needed features.

This machine is now equipped with a cool TECRAM cached IDE+FDD controller (means I already got IDE+HDD functionality - and it is working perfectly). However this card has no any Serial/Parallel ports, it is a pure drives-only controller.
I cannot just plug another multi-card in the box, as those normally contain IDE+FDD too and that will be conflicting with the existing TEKRAM (and yes, I prefer keeping TEKRAM rather than using that cheap multi-card).
Image
I would look for an ISA Serial+Parallel card, only (not multi). :)

Karlsweldt wrote:You want to free up as much of the base 640 KB memory as possible for programming to work. Device commands can move to the upper segment in the remainder of that first 1 MB of system memory.
Two commands in the config.sys file would provide for that. DEVICE: HIMEM.SYS and DEVICE: EMM386.EXE /NOEMS.

I prefer QEMM/386 instead - it is much more advanced.
It also has a cool tuning utility - all would be optimized for MAX_RAM in just a couple of clicks. Also I love that "speedy restart" option that it adds over 3-buttons-press.

Karlsweldt wrote:There still may be DOS drivers for that 3COM card, at http://list.driverguide.com/list/DOS/co ... index.html .
Don't trust all sites to be free of malware and other nasty bugs.

Malware in DOS drivers/residents? C'mon.... not that scary nowadays. :)

Karlsweldt wrote:DOS 6.22 does have limitations, may be better if you copy out the similar commands from a Win 98SE version to use.

Sadly to tell, but that is not fully compatible with pure, "native" DOS. Some old programs won't run on that so-called "DOS7.0" bue to the backward-compatibility issues. Also that version has not a full set of DOS commands - it is just a minimal setup to boot the '95 up. :(

I have some hardware-related questions pls:
1. This mobo got an external battery (that one for BIOS/NVRAM/RTC). Those old blue VARTA ones (that love to get leaked!) got a voltage of 3.6v.
To my mobo I am planning to attach a set of 3x AAA batteries (3x1.5=4.5v) via the external calbe.
Will it work in terms of overvoltage, or shall I better use just 2x of those (so I will get 3.0v)?

2. That batteries I just talked about - were those rechargeble (accumulators) those days, or just a batteries (like those on the modern mobos)? I may use 3xAAA accumulators designed for digital cameras, and I will get exactly 1.2x3=3.6v, but I am not sure if they ever be charging (by the design of the mobo) while the computer is powered up....

3. Is there any possibility to get USB functionality to this board (USB1 would be enough)? I never heard about any ISA-bus USB controller cards, but perhaps someone seen this miracle. :)
I know that there were some USB1 PCMCIA adapters for old notebooks, and there is a possibility to find ISA-based PCMCIA card...but not sure if this all will work. There is DOS, after all - USB drivers would be another quest... :)

4. There will be a quest to transfer 120Mb++ of official DOS drivers supplied for the SBAWE64GOLD on the original CD. My box has no CDROM yet (seems it just won't recognize DVD-ROMs, and I can't find any working CD-ROM at my backyard shells).

5. This mobo is affected to "year2000" bug. I can't put year 2015 - it always drives me back to 1915 once I close "Basic BIOS setup" page and re-enter again. :)
Was there any fix/workaround for this bug those days (without upgrading the fw - which I won't find now for sure)?

Thanks!
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Re: [IDENTIFIED!]Identify the board, need manual: 386/387, S

Postby Karlsweldt » Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:32 pm

With an I/O port controller, there are likely jumpers to set as 'primary' or 'secondary' on the same IRQ. A different DMA is used. And yes, you can get a port card that does not have the IDE and floppy headers. Check eBay for one, or other similar sites.
Older OS programs are still subject to viral and malware infections. Get your programming from trusted sites. Some sites will add tracking cookies or keyloggers! Driver Guide is considered a fairly safe site.
As to an optical drive on that board, yes you can have it. There is a command line MSCDEX.EXE in DOS and Windows versions that enables the device. You still need a suitable driver to complete the access to an optical drive, such as VIDE-CDD.SYS /D:MSCD001 /V or similar. Best not to have an optical drive and hard drive on the same data ribbon, as an optical drive is slower with data feed than a hard drive. {That /D:MSCD001 /V identifies the drive to the OS, the "V" is for 'verbose' or 'show stats'.}
Most of the default DOS commands are in a Windows folder named "Command" while others are in the main Windows folder. While it is possible to get a USB function in DOS 6.22, the programming may not be available. Win 98 command mode will accept a USB driver easier. A problem with a USB 1 controller is that it would not recognize any newer standard.. but a USB 2 controller may work. USB 1 is considered obsolete.
As to the battery, it would be best to use three alkaline or Ni-Cd batteries to retain the 3.6 volt maximum. While there is a load resistor in the feed to the BIOS and CMOS needs, plus a Zener diode to limit voltage, better to not go too high with supply voltage. When the system is in operation, the battery is not on draw. Only when the board is not powered is the battery tapped. No, there is no recharging feature for the BIOS battery. And not recommended. A set of 3 AA Ni-Cd batteries should last several years.. to their end of shelf life.
As to that Y2K problem.. some BIOS types are not compliant, and all you can do is reset the date and time with each start up.
That is very easy, once the System has settled down, just type in 'date' followed by the proper stats. Some 286 based boards were Y2K compliant, others not. Same for the 386 boards. Very few early 486 systems were not compliant.
Very doubtful that there is an antivirus and firewall program for that basic platform.. but after you get it working, the setup can be scanned via LAN from a more up-to-date system.

I have run the Win 98 basic commands on 386 systems with no problems.. and may still have the complete set for use. Will have to check.
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Re: [IDENTIFIED!]Identify the board, need manual: 386/387, S

Postby evasive » Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:34 am

3. ISA card with USB ports. They actally did exist (to my surprise):
http://www.hellotrade.com/simtec-electr ... rface.html
Finding a working one in the wild is going to be an entirely different matter
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Re: [IDENTIFIED!]Identify the board, need manual: 386/387, S

Postby evasive » Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:48 am

1. If you are using the correct pins on the header for the external battery pack, you are going through a diode in forward mode that is taking about 0,7V away so you end up with 3.8V which is then corrected to 3.0V by the onboard low-drop regulator. In other words, they provided you with a connection for just that, a 4.5V battery pack. Remove the jumper on that 4-point header though.

2. The external battery pack was not meant to be charged. Use normal (leak-proof good-branded) 1.5V AA cels.

4. I think a USB to IDE/SATA converter would be a good investment if you are going to hobby more with systems of this age, it provides you with a quick and easy way to dump stuff on the harddisks used in your older systems.

Slightly more cumbersome alternatives include using the network card to reach a fileshare on one of your windows systems or setting up a DOS-based browser (Arachne is one) to directly download the drivers from the CreativeLabs support site...

add on 3.
DOS drivers for USB do exist, not sure if they work with the Philips chip on the card I listed earlier though, need to check that:
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... rivers-dos
this looks promising:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 37877.html

5. There are Y2K TSR programs to set time/date before actually booting the rest of the OS, there may even be tools/drivers/utilities that reside in the MBR. 15 years ago there were a lot more of these dinosaurs around in production environment which need to "just work". More research needed.
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Re: [IDENTIFIED!]Identify the board, need manual: 386/387, S

Postby Taro1234 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:03 am

Got some progress! :)

1. Installed an 3x rechargeable batts cell (3.6v) to the external batt connector. Time/date is OK now.
Also this somehow fixed the "Y2K problem" - now the system properly picks and holds years >2000.

2. Installed SBAWE64Gold + DOS drivers found on VOGONS website.
Works as a charm w/o any issues.

3. Tried to dump the BIOS for you guys. However the first of the links given earlier seems to be dead, and the proggy on the second one is not working (first, it asked me for PCI bus which I don't have...then it told me that my comp is not 486+ one - yeah, right).
However I dumped the BIOS following this manual - http://www.mess.org/dumping/dump_bios_using_debug, not sure if it is a good one...the file is attached. :)

4. Plugged 3M LAN card to the ISA socket. Boots OK, but no drivers. :(

Guys, I have a problem. Seems I unable to install CD-ROM on this machine.
Look, I have 2 IDE controllers - one is cheap Goldstar Prime2 one (2xSerial/1xParallel/1xFDD/1xIDE), the second is Tekram DC-600T (2xIDE+1xFDD) with 16Mb onboard cache RAM.
Due to some reasons (dunno why) Tekram works fine with HDDs (on both ports) but totally ignores CDROM whatever IDE port I plug that. It simply not sees that, not detect even in his own BIOS....it sees only HDDs. Prime2 works for both plus gives me serial+parallel ports, but no onboard caching involved.

Both have jumpers to set themselves as primary/secondary IDE controllers. I tried to play around with pri/sec but the mobo seems completely unable to detect the second IDE controller, whatever it would be. It picks only "primary IDE controller", regardless I set that for Tekram or Prime2. The "secondary IDE" is totally skipped by the mobo - it does not even try to detect that.
In the mobo's BIOS, there is only 2 HDDs possible (C:,D:) - may that be the mobo is tooo dumb to know about secondary IDE controllers, and I am totally out of luck of having tekram+prime2 together?

So my questions are:
1. Is it possible that the mobo unable to use multiple IDE controllers, but the primary one?
2. How can I get CD-ROM (or DVD-ROM) working via Tekram DC-600T card? FDD+HDD work flawlessly, CD-ROM is completely undetectable (but works fine via prime2).
3. Anyone tried to use networking under DOS to access to the standard wndows shares? I already boring that swap-FDD-or-leave zen.... :)
Attachments
BIOS.zip
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Re: [IDENTIFIED!]Identify the board, need manual: 386/387, S

Postby Karlsweldt » Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:22 pm

As noted earlier, you need a driver program to enable access to an optical drive. That would be the VIDE-CDD.SYS file or any similar driver that will work in a command-prompt mode.
Then you need a device association (path) to the device, and its ID. That would be the MSCDEX.EXE file.
The main folder is named "BIN" but could be named "DOS" or similar.
Below are typical autoexec.bat and config.sys files.
To save root directory clutter, create a folder named "Progs" or similar and add in sub-folder names. Just remember, this is only a 16-bit OS version, so no more than 8 characters per file or driver name. Any more than eight characters, the name is atrophied.
===========================================
@ECHO OFF
PROMPT $p$g
PATH=C:\;C:\BIN
SET TEMP=C:\TEMP
SET BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 T6 H7 P330
SET SOUND C:\Progs\CREATIVE\CTSND
LH C:\TRMOUSE\TRMOUSE /A5
LH C:\BIN\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001 /V
=========================================
DEVICE=C:\BIN\HIMEM.SYS
DEVICE=C:\BIN\EMM386.EXE /NOEMS
FILES=100
DOS=HIGH,UMB
DEVICEHIGH=C:\BIN\VIDE-CDD.SYS /D:MSCD001
==============================================
As to hard drive type, look in the BIOS listing. Likely all are 17 SPT (sectors per track), lucky if you find 24 or 32 SPT.
Normally would be "Type 46" or "Type 47" for 'user' listing. Some BIOS versions list maybe 8 to 12 hard drive types, others list up to 45 types. Some older hard drive brands are not compatible with other brands, on the same cable.
Older BIOS versions also were not always compatible with other versions. For a pre-loaded hard drive from one system to another, maybe no access. Best to do a resident format and file loading.
The IRQ for storage drives is #14 as 'primary', #15 as 'secondary'. DMA assignment is default as #1. For a second storage controller, the same IRQ assignments are used, but DMA #2 or #3 is used.
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Re: [IDENTIFIED!]Identify the board, need manual: 386/387, S

Postby Taro1234 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:28 pm

Karlsweldt wrote:As noted earlier, you need a driver program to enable access to an optical drive.

My question was not about the driver, but about the hardware.
I am quite familiar with these drivers things. But the question is that:
1) Mobo "won't see" the secondary IDE controller, whatever I plugged into that. If I set tekram as primary and prime2 as secondary (via the jumpers on both) - it sees only tekram and the HDD plugged to that, but not prime2 (with or without HDDs/CDROMs). And if I reverse the things and set prime2 as primary, and tekram as secondary - it sees only prime2 (+drives on it), and tekram is magically disappears from the system. Seems the mobo has clue about ONE ide controller, only.
2) Tekram IDE works flawlessly with IDE HDDs, but won't see any CDROM\DVDROM attached to that. Once again, it is not a drivers problem - it won't see that even in it's own BIOS (it has its own BIOS extension, just like mobo's BIOS. I can see all drivers it detects....so far I have no luck to detect *any* CDROM plugged to tekram - but *all* HDDs working good). Seems this tekram is designed only for HDDs.
3) Thus I have options "good tekram with caching but no ports and no CDROM", OR "cheapie prime2 with ports and cdrom but no caching". I would like to get "tekram+CDROM"+"prime2 with disabled IDE+FDD, enabled ports only" - but how can I do that? Tekram won't detect just *any* CDROM, and it is (once again) not a drivers issue, it is seen during the POST process or on the tekram's own setup pages. CDROMs are simply not listed in tekram's BIOS extension, while HDDs are listed properly.

Karlsweldt wrote:The IRQ for storage drives is #14 as 'primary', #15 as 'secondary'. DMA assignment is default as #1. For a second storage controller, the same IRQ assignments are used, but DMA #2 or #3 is used.

As far as I understand, TWO IDE controllers must be represented as (2x)*2=4 HDD lines in BIOS, a.k.a "First/Second/Third/Fourth HDDs" to be set the type (or autodetect). My mobo has just 2 HDD lines on the BIOS ("C:. D:"). I suspect that my mobo is *not* compatible with 2 IDE controllers, it listens to just primary one (so 2 HDDs) and that's all.
I can't prove that yet - but I can't make the secondary controller (whatever model) to work on this mobo along the primary one. :(
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Re: [IDENTIFIED!]Identify the board, need manual: 386/387, S

Postby Taro1234 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:34 pm

PS: it seems that my tekram DC-600T won't support CDROM:
http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-disk-f ... ri-71.html
But another tekram, DC600CD, has CDROM support:
http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-disk-f ... ri-69.html

That's bad...:(
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Re: [IDENTIFIED!]Identify the board, need manual: 386/387, S

Postby evasive » Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:55 pm

well thinking a bit out of the box but using a parallel port CDROM or even a SCSI one? Since you're using old stuff anyway...

What 3COM (3C509 perhaps?) card is that? I think I can dig up drivers for basically everything they ever made for almost any OS.
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