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Postby Copper » Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:12 pm

Ghen wrote:The only reason terrorists from Iran and other countries are in Iraq now, is because we took out the government creating a vacuum of power. If the terrorists can influence the new government in any slight way, then their job is a success.

Before we went to war Iraq was one of the worst countries to live in for terrorists just because of all the inspectors running around here and there. Sure Saddam killed people for the wrong reasons lots of people. And sure he wanted to make WMDs. The key is his -wants- and -abilities- were so extremely different. If you want to talk about bad governments that need toppling Iraq is certianly not the first on anyone's list! North Korea is mine.

Bush better be extremely careful for his reasonings to go to war. All his lies about WMD's were well and good at the time, and he could fess up to them now with little recourse.. But if he sticks to his guns and says that just because Saddam was a bad guy.. Well then we've got a butt-load of countries to invade just to keep up the status quo! Plus the fact that we still have yet to make even Afghanistan safe! They're basically back to the old system of warlords now except for the major cities.


As a caveat though: We can NOT pull out of Iraq. We must not. To do so now would lead to dire situations in the future, not to mention the reputation we'd get as nation murderers.


i quite agree
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Postby tedybear » Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:08 pm

My own feelings about the whole WMD mess is well known. I stand by my comments about Bush not lieing about Iraq's WMD's...as he was suckered in like over 98% of the free worlds Intel was (or would anyone like to see a flashback to the 90's where everyone was pounding on iraq's wmd programs?).

All things being equal? I agree that we should'ent leave Iraq until matters are finished up there, and I've said this all along. Agree or disagree on the HOW and WHYs that got us there? We're there...If we leave? The terrorist mark up a huge win...the US and it's "allies" (for lack of a better word) get labled as being "paper tigers". One of the side effects back in the Reagan era was the bombings....Heavy loss of life...Reagan pulled the troops out. BIG MISTAKE as it showed that when push comes to shove? We'll give up and go home. NEVER AGAIN... We've made this mess, and we had better flippen well clean things up...Otherwise the country of Iraq will splinter...civil war is possible..and the terrorist wacko's already in the area now have a new training area, complete with a supply of $$ (Oil)

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Postby efs2 » Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:51 pm

Greetings:
tedybear wrote: We've made this mess, and we had better flippen well clean things up...Otherwise the country of Iraq will splinter...civil war is possible..and the terrorist wacko's already in the area now have a new training area, complete with a supply of $$ (Oil)


I doubt that it is humanly possible to "clean things up" in Iraq, and what we are doing is a sad and tragic farce.

Do you honestly think an election so thoroughly tainted by U.S. involvement is going to fix things?
I think it will only serve to provide another focus for the terrorists there. Everyone who "wins" in this election will have a price on his head.

The sad truth is that unless we are prepared to commit 100,000 or more U.S. troops to bases in Iraq permanently, it makes no difference in the long run what the U.S. does or does not do in Iraq now to set up a post-war government.
Once we hand over the keys and march out, whatever has been suppressed by the presence of U.S. troops will erupt.

If it is civil war based on religious denominational lines - i.e., the Sunnis and the Shiites - then Iraq will become Lebanon II, and the chaos there now will seem like a picnic in comparison.

But I think it is considerably more likely that the Shiite majority will seize control and Iraq will degenerate into an Islamic totalitarian state similar to if not indistinguishable from Iran.
Regardless of whatever governmental facade is in place, the true power will be in the hands of religious fanatics, who will hold the power of life and death over every man, woman and child within its borders.
It will be home to anti-American terrorists who will spend every waking moment plotting ways to kill Americans, and, without Saddam Hussein to hold them in check, free to carry out their plots.

I don't know what scares me more - the thought that George Bush is so cynical and evil that he doesn't care that his lies have created a bloody nightmare that has killed tens of thousands, or the thought that he is so misguided that he truly believes that those who are dying are doing so in a noble cause.

Here's a thought just for perspective:
What would the world be today if George Bush were at the controls during the Cuban Missile Crisis instead of John Kennedy?
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Postby trexntx » Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:01 pm

I stand by my comments about Bush not lieing about Iraq's WMD's...as he was suckered in like over 98% of the free worlds Intel was


If he was suckered it was totally willfully. He was provided with information that refuted the existence of WMD's and there was dissent, but he chose to ignore it.

Give me a break. If you are president and your decision is to ask congress to allow you to send people to die, you make damn sure you are right.
:evil:

You don't allow yourself to be suckered. :roll: Please. :roll:
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Postby colinJohn » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:47 am

heard today that Iraq is now the largest training and recruitment ground for terrorism in the world. Before we went in there there were no known terrosts opperating in/from Iraq

great job......
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Postby miki02131 » Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:54 am

My assessment is that G Bush wanted to overthrow Saddam regardless of WMD or not. I believe that WMD was a pretext to going in.

However, removing Saddam is a good thing in its own. Therefore, I still believe and support his decision. What I don't support and I've been saying that all along is the after war management. We made major mistakes in disbanding the Iraqi army instead reforming it. This is the decision that created that whole mess.

Insurgency war can be won but it takes time. It might even takes 50years or more before completely pacifying and democratizing Iraq. If we are unwilling to stay that long, then we can limit our objective to fortifying the borders of Iraq and protecting the oil.

Now I am thinking it might the right thing to do. After pulling out, there will be civil war based on religious denomination like the world never seen before. There will thousands dead and displaced people. Let the strongest side win. Let the strongest side establish the form of government that Iraq deserves.
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Postby trexntx » Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:00 am

colinJohn wrote:heard today that Iraq is now the largest training and recruitment ground for terrorism in the world. Before we went in there there were no known terrorists operating in/from Iraq

great job......


Well, in the opinion of some it is a great job.

Better that we are drawing them out of the woodwork to a somewhat central location to deal with them. I have also heard people say that it's better we fight them there than here. No arguing that point.

The problem is that we will never get rid of them all and in the meantime civilians are dying at the hands of the insurgents and our military, which only serves to deepen the resentment directed toward us which in turn fuels recruitment. I mean.... duh...

Furthermore, we are trying to establish a democratically elected government while admitting that it is likely that the highest percentage of people that will be able to vote is only 50%. Democracy is all about representation of constituancies. No representation... no democracy. They will try to present the figures in the best light just as they did when they stated that only four of Iraq's provinces (or whatever they're called) would likely not be involved in the process because of security problems. What they didn't mention is that constitutes 50% of the population. :wink:

Believe it or not, I almost feel sorry for Bush. After all, it wasn't really his fault that 9/11 occurred, but he is accountable for is his responses afterward. That is where I find fault.

Perhaps if he would simply come out and offer a sincere apology to the American people and the world then I would gain a great deal of respect for the man and feel that he was genuine. Doubtful it would ever happen though, because it might be construed as a sign of weakness.
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Postby Ghen » Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:54 am

Terrorists are people too. I think its better to realize -why- they're acting against us and work to minimize their hate! Its NOT better to fight them here, there, or anywhere!

Iraq is not a collection point for terrorists.. It is a breeding ground. We are killing people who formerly were not terrorists.


Also, its not about whether Bush got duped or not its the fact that he doesn't admit he was wrong! He still tries to rationalize it saying he would have gone to war anyway. Yeah right. Without the iminent threat of WMD's there is no war, there is diplomacy. Without Immediate threat to America's intrests there is absolutely no reason to invade another country.

Pre-emptive attack? That is a tool for the weak. Maybe we should create something new.. Called Pre-emptive Diplomacy.
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Postby tedybear » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:22 pm

Ghen wrote:Terrorists are people too. I think its better to realize -why- they're acting against us and work to minimize their hate! Its NOT better to fight them here, there, or anywhere!

Iraq is not a collection point for terrorists.. It is a breeding ground. We are killing people who formerly were not terrorists.


Also, its not about whether Bush got duped or not its the fact that he doesn't admit he was wrong! He still tries to rationalize it saying he would have gone to war anyway. Yeah right. Without the iminent threat of WMD's there is no war, there is diplomacy. Without Immediate threat to America's intrests there is absolutely no reason to invade another country.

Pre-emptive attack? That is a tool for the weak. Maybe we should create something new.. Called Pre-emptive Diplomacy.


A couple of things interesting to note.. If GW came out and said he was 'wrong' about the WMD's? and came out and said "Wooops...sorry, made a mistake" The media would go into a frenzy, the democrats would be screaming at the top of their lungs to impeach him over this. Most normal sane people would view such a comment as "Yep..he's human and prone to mistakes as we all are...let's move on to our next embarasing moment".. I found some of the remarks and comments by a few key members of the house and senate over the last couple of weeks to be totally off the wall b/s.. But that's neither here nor there...as that's how the game is played.

In regards to iraq not supporting or training terrorists? Keep in mind Saddam was paying off members of Hamas and other groups $25,000+ to each family that pulled off a sucessful homicide bombing...And would anyone care to explain the body of an aircraft (747 liner) was being used for? I still remember that satalight image. Right in the middle of no-where...A 747 without wings with training camps in the area. Now what do you suppose it was there for? Training your future "Flight Attendents"?

Most of this has been covered again and again and again...and it's getting old. Nothing but the old game of "Gotcha....See I told you so"..

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Postby HollowPoint69 » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:58 pm

tedybear wrote:A couple of things interesting to note.. If GW came out and said he was 'wrong' about the WMD's? and came out and said "Wooops...sorry, made a mistake" The media would go into a frenzy, the democrats would be screaming at the top of their lungs to impeach him over this. Most normal sane people would view such a comment as "Yep..he's human and prone to mistakes as we all are...let's move on to our next embarasing moment".. I found some of the remarks and comments by a few key members of the house and senate over the last couple of weeks to be totally off the wall b/s.. But that's neither here nor there...as that's how the game is played.


If Bill Clinton can be impeached over a blow job (which was also a "mistake"), Bush can be impeached for killing thousands of iraqi civilians and sending off his citizens to die in a meaningless war.
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