U.S. Government Crisis!

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Postby Roach412 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:15 am

right and wrong left a long time ago in washington.

i'm not for the health care law, so, defunding or delaying it is fine with me. and, since there's no other options left for republicans what else do you expect them to do? the democrats have shut them out of all other debateable modifications to it already...so, they're backed into a ideological corner.

democrats in my state did a very similar stunt when they left the state in order to avoid a vote they didn't like and they couldn't win.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/ ... W520110217

koch brothers are really a weak smoke screen for hating on republicans...they're not even all that "republican" in reality. there's just as many influential leftist that provide as much or more funding for political gains, so does that make them more right or less wrong?
http://newhampshire.watchdog.org/11798/ ... -the-left/

i hate politics. they're all a bunch of *things i can't say on a public forum*...

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Postby bdub » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:33 pm

a: law was passed by congress. b: law was held up by the courts. c: law was again measured in the 2012 elections when obama was again elected.

maybe you could say the law was passed using trickery... but then again, so was the abolition of slavery.

the koch bros fund the ultra right wing faction of the republican party.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a- ... anted=all&
"The billionaire Koch brothers, Charles and David, have been deeply involved with financing the overall effort. A group linked to the Kochs, Freedom Partners Chamber of Commerce, disbursed more than $200 million last year to nonprofit organizations involved in the fight. Included was $5 million to Generation Opportunity, which created a buzz last month with an Internet advertisement showing a menacing Uncle Sam figure popping up between a woman’s legs during a gynecological exam. "

and now they are trying to distance themselves from their bad planning and execution...
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/0 ... n-Strategy
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Postby Karlsweldt » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:42 am

Former Attorney General Edwin Meese III is mentioned in that previously posted link. Shameful!
The "debit ceiling" being raised only ascertains that previous spending bills be paid as due.. no new expenditures. There is a motion being considered to extend the deadline another six weeks, while the "actors" get together on a common platform.
Not all of the Democratic Party or Republican Party members are cow-towing to 'special interest' groups. Most are honest and caring about the operation of the government and citizen needs. But the few that capitulate to 'special interest' groups for gratuities are the "rotten apples" that spoil the rest. You might label those few as 'carpetbaggers'!
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Postby Roach412 » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:40 am

bdub wrote:a: law was passed by congress. b: law was held up by the courts. c: law was again measured in the 2012 elections when obama was again elected.

laws can be stayed, modified or even repealed at any time - whether or not they were upheld in the courts or were "re-measured" during an election. elections are more influenced by current environmental factors than thought and foresight into the future of a law or measure that hasn't been implemented, tested or proven(let alone even fully understood).

bdub wrote:maybe you could say the law was passed using trickery... but then again, so was the abolition of slavery.

in some people's minds the implementation of a government-run/administered health care system is akin to a form of slavery. in some respects i agree, up to a certain degree. how is a dependence much different than enslavement? willful vs. unwillful slavery is still such - the actual definition of slavery includes the aspect of: "excessive dependence on or devotion to something".

could be construed as a tricky way of re-enacting slavery, eh?

bdub wrote:the koch bros fund the ultra right wing faction of the republican party.

so? it's their money, they are entitled to do whatever they want with it. there's still literally MILLIONS of people that support their organizations with their own money. this isn't just two brothers with some cash laying around vs. the poor innocent liberals who are never in-the-wrong. they're both liars and cheats. both sides use nefarious methods to gain power and influence, blaming all these problems on the koch's is just so narrow, and tired.

bdub wrote:and now they are trying to distance themselves from their bad planning and execution...
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/0 ... n-Strategy

if you review the first article you posted, you'll see that the most highly-funded koch-related organizations are indeed focused on purely advert and info distribution tactics - so i don't believe the dailykos article is very accurate. it's obviously too short to be of much analytical value, but of course there's probably some truth to it - but there's also some truth to the koch industries letter as well. to judge either of these claims in absolutes would be incorrect, as it's (in simplest terms) too complex. :wink:

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Postby bdub » Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:49 am

so you are saying that most of the rest of the modernized world are slaves because they get relatively free health care? slaves in france, England, Germany, Canada, Australia, cuba, the lot of them?
I COMPLETELY REJECT THE NOTION THAT AFFORDABLE HEALTHCARE IS ANYTHING LIKE SLAVERY. that is ludicrous! i'd say they are more free because they don't have to worry all the time about not getting sick.

you must be listening to this guy...
http://rolandmartinreports.com/blog/201 ... er-summit/

not blaming EVERYTHING on the Koch's, but they have evil hands in a lot of places.

Koch's are just interested in their bottom line. they don't have to respond to stock holders, and they want to be able to be free to pollute all they want without pesky regulations.
a lot of money is being unleashed now that "citizens united" (complete BS name, btw) went thru... there's a lot of Koch money there. more than you obviously know.

the fact is americans for prosperity and other Koch funded groups, and the kochs themselves extort republicans, by threatening them the possibility of having to go up against primary challengers in their districts at home , and these challengers will have nearly unlimited campaign resources because of citizens united, if they don't follow the kochs ranks. this is why so many moderates have been shaken out of the republican party. this is also why a handful of extortionists in the house can cause the ridiculous crap going on now in government.

the thing the right wing is fearing the most is that when obamacare works, then they are going to be called out for the lying deceivers they are. they will do everything in the book they can to undermine its success. even though it works great in Romney-land, and is originally their idea.
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Postby Roach412 » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:22 pm

bdub wrote:so you are saying that most of the rest of the modernized world are slaves because they get relatively free health care? slaves in france, England, Germany, Canada, Australia, cuba, the lot of them?
I COMPLETELY REJECT THE NOTION THAT AFFORDABLE HEALTHCARE IS ANYTHING LIKE SLAVERY. that is ludicrous! i'd say they are more free because they don't have to worry all the time about not getting sick.

construe it however you want, my healthcare is significantly less affordable because of this law. so, yes, in a sense i'm enslaved to the government involvement enabled by this law. it's not black and white as you're making it out to be...there are winners, and there are losers. that's great if you're a winner, but the least you could do is thank some of us losers then.

i won't go as far as caps locking to make a point, but affordable healthcare is available and isn't slavery. i worked hard to be where i am and to get my previously fantastic benefits, which the government is so simply stripping away. the method of implementing such "attempts" at "fair" healthcare for all in this case is a form of slavery. a law mandating the dismantling of (what i believe) to be fair and affordable healthcare to me is something that i completely reject...

bdub wrote:you must be listening to this guy...
http://rolandmartinreports.com/blog/201 ... er-summit/

i appreciate the stereotype i guess? however, i don't listen to any one source, and i won't even look at that blog post because i'm willing to bet it brings nothing to the conversation. hopefully it was a good read.

bdub wrote:not blaming EVERYTHING on the Koch's, but they have evil hands in a lot of places.

there are so many evil people with their hands in everything...why even waste time raging on any one of them in particular. there's so many more constructive attitudes to take.

bdub wrote:the thing the right wing is fearing the most is that when obamacare works, then they are going to be called out for the lying deceivers they are. they will do everything in the book they can to undermine its success. even though it works great in Romney-land, and is originally their idea.

i've never once said it wouldn't "work". however, it can be unfair from my perspective. plus, while long-time supporters of social security and medicare rant and rave about how it's been successful - i can say (again from my perspective) that it's again unfair. i'm too young to have any belief that i'll have access to what i've put into those programs when(if) i ever qualify. while those programs are gutted, by both "sides" mind you, how can anyone possibly say they are successful? perhaps they were for a while, but then what's to stop obamacare from falling on it's face as well? i bet that'll be a cheap fix. :roll:
those programs cannot stand on their own and have failed hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people during their run. i see it no differently with obamacare, it will work to a degree...but at what cost? nobody has a g*ddam clue because the law is so convoluted and warped and complex that it's impossible to even make intelligent guesses and the true cost/benefit numbers. even estimates from the SAME side of the aisle are BILLIONS of dollars off from their own estimates. not only in dollars and cents, but in the impacts to millions of jobs, businesses, individuals, research, quality and timeliness care...none of this is known...much less even thoughtfully considered for that matter.

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Postby bdub » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:54 am

"wasting time raging"... oh yeah lots of time wasted "raging" here. please.
i'd say a lot less time is spent "raging" by me than others in here.

well, the rage just clicked on...

keep moving that football.
oh yeah, and Wisconsin... no wonder you are defending the Koch's. I get that now. lots of Koch industry done there... and their private playground for trying to kill off public unions. scott walker's your boy then, eh?

stereotype? well, you are pulling straight from the fox talking points, so yeah (I guess?). that was just the most oddball post I could find at that point... but there's tons of them out there. all of a sudden this big storm of right wing talkers calling the ACA slavery. funny how the party of personal responsibility can change it's tune so fast when a democrat president decides to use a plan designed by the party of personal responsibility.

phony facts won't save the republican party this time. that tea faction is sending them right off the abyss. won't be long now. and libertarians? phhhhht... just republicans in sheeps clothing.
I have no idea where my pricing on insurance is going from here, but either way I feel better about our more fair society, and i'm hoping there will be a less acidic environment soon where people can actually hammer out real deals, and where one side doesn't push a catastrophe to try to get everything it wants.

here's a hypothetical letter to John Boehner...
"Pass a clean CR and raise the debt ceiling John, then lay out your case to the people so you an try to win the hearts and minds of the electorate next year instead of destabilizing the economy and throwing massive uncertainty into your much loved and vaunted market. If the stock market drops, you’ll be blamed and you are already heading a rebellion that has 76% disapproval so end the farce and save America, it’s that simple.
The President can’t make you do the right thing so stop pretending that he is to blame for the way your party has been overrun by irrational hostage takers that view government as the enemy.
John you are the leader in 1 branch of government and I know you wish you had a rational caucus to work with but remember it was your backers that created, funded, energized and propelled the Birchers into your party, the same one that Barry Goldwater had the intestinal fortitude to expel years ago.
You were giddy with excitement when you laid your hand on that comically large gavel in 2011 but what were you expecting, seeing you’d already met the freshmen and new just how far over the edge people like Michele Bachmann and Alan West were. You could have laid down the law there and then and taken your lumps instead of being lead around the parade ring with a ring through your nose.
It’s not too late for you to do the right thing and I know you have some vague memories of coming into politics to do some good, but ego and ready access to insider trading, kickbacks and out and out bribes has pushed your moral compass deep inside.
You changed the constitution a few days ago by changing the rules on how only Eric Cantor can introduce a bill, cutting out the centuries old norm of any house member can introduce a bill, that was a coup d’état, an overthrowing of democracy and as shameful an act as sedition. It’s not too late, call that vote, make it a secret ballot if your moderate members are in fear of retribution, Have Eric call it if you feel you lack the backbone and when it passes with bipartisan support you can even say you were against it but congress has spoken.
3/4s of the population wants it all to end yesterday and people are going without pay, food isn’t being inspected, labs aren’t making flu vaccine and salmonella is spreading across the nation. And don’t pretend that medical device manufacturers who typically charge hospitals 2000% over manufacture costs can’t pay a 3% tax to help fund the ACA. That’s absolutely laughable. "
Last edited by bdub on Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Roach412 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:03 am

bdub wrote:"wasting time raging"... oh yeah lots of time wasted "raging" here. please.
i'd say a lot less time is spent "raging" by me than others in here.

my whole original point was that you spent nearly all your negative espousement on the koch's...hey, do what you want and focus your ire on them if you want, but they're not the whole problem. if you think they are, then whatever man...it's your own thing.

and considering you're essentially the only one commenting on this topic, yes, you are spending significantly more time "raging" than anyone else on the entire board.

bdub wrote:oh yeah, and Wisconsin... no wonder you are defending the Koch's. I get that now. lots of Koch industry done there... and their private playground for trying to kill off public unions. scott walker's your boy then, eh?

since you don't actually live here, i don't really take your assessment of my state's business, union or political atmosphere very seriously. both the private business and the public sector have successfully overblown the whole situation here. your short summation of the climate(and apparent cause?) of that situation just proves the point that national media exposure did nothing but provide negative press about it.

all i've really asked for is a less punative reaction to quality healthcare provided by employers. i'm not given an option of keeping a BETTER insurance policy than what's offered through the marketplace because it's "too good"...how is that fair? my company didn't drop people with pre-existing conditions. they did have lifetime limits in-place, but they had NEVER been reached by any employee, ever. they met every requirement that the new health care law requires, and then some. yet...now my premiums go up...my coverage goes down...my choice of providers goes down...etc, etc.
every change has been negative to me(and every single one of the employees here).

if that's "fair" then where's my piece of the pie? :roll:

you have some serious deep-seated angst man...seriously. did a card-carrying republican kick your puppy when you were a kid or what? not everyone that has some conservative-leaning ideals is a republican. my personal voting record and the types of organizations/activities i involve myself with (which i get the feeling you'd just blow off) could surprise you. but hey, i must just be a scott walker loving, gun-toting, environment-hating, public employee abusing, koch lapdog right-wing sheep, eh? does that cover most of your assumptions from this thread? talk about acidic environment.

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Postby bdub » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:20 am

ah yes, the deep seated angst... yes, I see the truth about how republicans work. keeping secret meetings to change rules in the house so only eric cantor can bring up bills right now... etc. yes, you can interpret that for angst I guess. angst that democracy is being suspended currently.


and can you say your premiums weren't going up every year before the ACA? i'll tell you around here, they were. like I said, i'm not sure if I turn out to be a winner or a loser, but I don't gripe all day about it, worrying about my "piece of the pie"
what I gripe all day about is forced extortion by you know who.

what part of Mitch McConnell's message in Obama's first year did you not understand to be acidic? the part about doing everything possible to ensure Obama was a one term president?
never before has any president had to fight like this. I hope that turns off.

Roach412 wrote: but hey, i must just be a scott walker loving, gun-toting, environment-hating, public employee abusing, koch lapdog right-wing sheep, eh?
your words, not mine... but you could have added "science-denying"... or "bible-thumping"... lol!!!
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Re: U.S. Government Crisis!

Postby rascard2007 » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:03 pm

things like that happen when U invest an idiot as president and even relect him!
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Things they would not teach me of in college"
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