Power supply questions

All hardware or software issues that do not have a specific forum go here.

Moderator: The Mod Squad

Re: Power supply questions

Postby LakaWaka » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:45 am

Karlsweldt wrote:If really concerned about toxicity or burns from faulty capacitors, then use those Nitrile gloves that most mechanics wear while working. Less than eight cents each, in small lots. I have bare-handed dozens of bad caps, but always ensure I wash well after, before touching anything else.
The gel or solution in capacitors is not intended to out-gas. But a faulted formula caused unwanted interaction of the chemicals, and the solution failed quickly. It expanded and did produce some gasses, which bulged the tops. The bottom of a capacitor has a rubber plug, that too would bulge. Worst case, there was leakage that could dissolve the protective motherboard coating and etch into traces.


I hope everyone would be concerned, but yes I like to make sure I know what I'm doing when handling things, so that I don't make mistakes. I was thinking about gloves, wasn't sure if I should use medical gloves that aren't penetrable. The mechanical ones are more of a mesh material... right? Would liquids penetrate? So it's really just a case of "don't touch it and put it to your mouth" type deal, and wont cause issues with absorbing really?
Ah, so gassing is a result of bad formulas? Is that what happened during that "capacitor plague" period I mentioned earlier? I read that from 99-07 there were a ton of bad caps, especially from Taiwan.... The only reason I mentioned outgassing is because someone said they hear a pop on their mobo and hear a gas leaky noise and smelled something....... yeah... NOPE.....
It sounds like caps can do bad things at any point though.... Apprently my MSI Mobo uses "Military Grade 4 Capacitors" and I also heard that my EVGA G2 uses "High Quality Japanese Capacitors." Any idea about either of them?

So if a capacitor did leak, lets say onto the mainboard (is that the proper term?), would it be possible to repair?

I also would like to get a test mobo to test this card as you said. I also am curious if something really bad could happen if I try to plug this card in? i.e., caps exploding or whatnot.... (I'm not sure they do that, but I thought I read a comment about that being possible). I would test this outside in a well ventilated/large area.
Thanks a lot Karlsweldt you're the best!
LakaWaka
Initiate
Initiate
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 11:41 am

Re: Power supply questions

Postby Karlsweldt » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:27 pm

Those Nitrile gloves that mechanics use are somewhat immune to a lot of chemicals and acids. And tough.
..someone said they hear a pop on their mobo and hear a gas leaky noise and smelled something..

If that were to happen, then the capacitor has shorted internally, and did explode, if only mildly. But can do a real splatter of shrapnel! Have experienced that. Nothing like sitting in a quiet area, intent on your task, when a loud SNAP makes you jump. Then hope you don't have a fire as a result. But the PSU mains fuse should be the savior.
F@H.. to solve mankind's maladies.. in our lifetimes!
Karlsweldt
Mobo-fu Master
Mobo-fu Master
 
Posts: 20672
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:57 am
Location: 07438

Re: Power supply questions

Postby LakaWaka » Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:12 am

Karlsweldt wrote:Those Nitrile gloves that mechanics use are somewhat immune to a lot of chemicals and acids. And tough.
..someone said they hear a pop on their mobo and hear a gas leaky noise and smelled something..

If that were to happen, then the capacitor has shorted internally, and did explode, if only mildly. But can do a real splatter of shrapnel! Have experienced that. Nothing like sitting in a quiet area, intent on your task, when a loud SNAP makes you jump. Then hope you don't have a fire as a result. But the PSU mains fuse should be the savior.


I should have searched the web before posting, but yes those "nitrite gloves": are the ones I was referring to :P. I did read that they have "industrial strength' ones, should I look into that, or is it a gimmick?

So what do you think happened to the mobo that the cap exploded? When I was looking up the "Capacitor Plague"I saw a lot of Mobo damage and such... Really really scary... You want to hope your PSU is good enough quality that the main fuse didn't expode :).

Speaking of PSUs, I did some more reading up on the Pico, and I saw some people using the Pico with an Ivy Bridge i7 (possiby overclcoked) some HDDs/SDDs and even one with a 750ti GFX Card!!! That's pretty amazing. One use also said that his computer kept restarting because his power consumption was too high. I thought the 12V wasn't regulated, and figured it would have exploded? I guess he got lucky or....? Someone also made a mention that the 12V rail can only handle 96W, my CPU is 95W, but that's total power, so I don't know if it would get that high... The ivy processors seem3ed to be around 55W or so, maybe higher, but my Sandy seems too high for what I want to do... I know we already spoke about this a bit in the other topic, but since this is the PSU topic, I thougth I would bring it up again... Good to see others using it, but I'm still wary of using it with the sandy... Besides temps... Part of me is thinking of picking up a lower end, used, Sandy i3 or so, that could work well, and use that... But then I waste my i5 2400.... But tht would mean I would have ot buy another machine to get what I want, and Idk if I want to get another machine and just have it sit around lol. CUrrently I have a desktop, a laptop, and this 3rd machine that I'm building, which I'm not really sure what I want to use it for (I wanted to use it as a test machine for applications and such). I could make a 4th machine just for a file sharing machine. I was speaking to @Mr.T in another thread, and I think the i5 would be too much, so maybe i could put something cheap together... Idk :(. What do you think? :)

Thanks so much.
LakaWaka
Initiate
Initiate
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 11:41 am

Re: Power supply questions

Postby Karlsweldt » Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:18 pm

"industrial strength" Nitrile gloves are intended more for where acids and harsh chemicals are in use, such as metal plating operations. The 'regular' version should be more than enough security for normal work.
If a capacitor exploded on a motherboard, likely a wide area of contamination from chemicals and debris. May have shut the system down, or is in death throes. if in the PSU, more contained, but likely regulation is off, and could cause circuit damage to the motherboard.

A CPU draws current not only from the AT12v supplementary plug, but also from the motherboard power traces. More efficient to regulate a 3.3 volt source down to 1.3 volt or so need. Less waste heat generation.
The +12 volt rail on a PSU should be regulated, as higher voltage can cause damage to circuits. Lower voltage may cause servo motors to not spin at desired speed.
Ohm's Law governs current and voltage equations. Main rule is that 1 volt at 1 amp is 1 ohm. Change one figure, one or the other two are altered. 96 watts at 12 volts is only 8 amps. For 12 volts at 10 amp draw, that would equal 120 volts at 1 amp equivalent for same motive force.
The total amount of +12 volt power from a PSU rail is limited, due mainly to wire gauge used. More current per wire, the heavier the gauge (lower number) required. AWG18 is most common, maximum 10 amps per lead, enclosed area. Having separate "rail" sources balances the load(s) for all needs.
F@H.. to solve mankind's maladies.. in our lifetimes!
Karlsweldt
Mobo-fu Master
Mobo-fu Master
 
Posts: 20672
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:57 am
Location: 07438

Re: Power supply questions

Postby LakaWaka » Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:46 am

Karlsweldt wrote:"industrial strength" Nitrile gloves are intended more for where acids and harsh chemicals are in use, such as metal plating operations. The 'regular' version should be more than enough security for normal work.
If a capacitor exploded on a motherboard, likely a wide area of contamination from chemicals and debris. May have shut the system down, or is in death throes. if in the PSU, more contained, but likely regulation is off, and could cause circuit damage to the motherboard.

A CPU draws current not only from the AT12v supplementary plug, but also from the motherboard power traces. More efficient to regulate a 3.3 volt source down to 1.3 volt or so need. Less waste heat generation.
The +12 volt rail on a PSU should be regulated, as higher voltage can cause damage to circuits. Lower voltage may cause servo motors to not spin at desired speed.
Ohm's Law governs current and voltage equations. Main rule is that 1 volt at 1 amp is 1 ohm. Change one figure, one or the other two are altered. 96 watts at 12 volts is only 8 amps. For 12 volts at 10 amp draw, that would equal 120 volts at 1 amp equivalent for same motive force.
The total amount of +12 volt power from a PSU rail is limited, due mainly to wire gauge used. More current per wire, the heavier the gauge (lower number) required. AWG18 is most common, maximum 10 amps per lead, enclosed area. Having separate "rail" sources balances the load(s) for all needs.


Gotta go all in... :).
Yeah I would assume something bad would happen if a cap blew lol... If the mobo survived that would be interesting.... Same with PSU.

Ah, makes sense. It seems the CPU will use alot of different voltages. It seemst here's a 5v also that's regulated on the pico, or did I mistake it for something else?
Yeah, I don't know why it's not regulated, but is that a huge deal? it seems that it can only handle 12v x 15 amps total from what I read, and 96w of that is the cpu apparently? Maybe my figures are wrong, but I read something about 96w on the 12v rail... BUt honestly, if someone was able to get an i5/77 3 series, and a graphics card with 2 hard drives I think I'll be okay with no gfraphics card and 1 hd... :P. I think I'll grab some other components though... Any thoughts on a dual core i3 6-series being good for non-gaming tasks?

Ah I see you did the conversions yourself, but not sure how that all works with these units overall :).

I have heard there are some dual rail PSUs that come with 2 12v rails, but I hear that is rare and most do not have that. IS there a reason why splitting the rails would be good/bad?
Thanks a lot for everything.
LakaWaka
Initiate
Initiate
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 11:41 am

Re: Power supply questions

Postby Karlsweldt » Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:50 pm

I worked in the commercial electrical field for more than 20 years. A lot of formulas and such have to be remembered, wire gauge, current limits, resistance.
As to a PSU with two or more +12 volt rails, that equals better regulation overall, less waste heat generated if only one rail at maximum current. Very high amperage transistors and triacs become expensive!
Precise regulation of some voltages are critical with computers, especially the +3.3 and +5.
F@H.. to solve mankind's maladies.. in our lifetimes!
Karlsweldt
Mobo-fu Master
Mobo-fu Master
 
Posts: 20672
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:57 am
Location: 07438

Re: Power supply questions

Postby LakaWaka » Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:10 pm

It's great to be able to speak to a professional who knows what they are talking about :).
Ah, so it's a matter of expense when dealing with multi-rails.
Ah, that makes sense why they are the ones only regulated, but you would think that thye would regulate everything. Apparently someone had their Pico shut off on them, so that was due to one of those 2 rails overloading then?
So I think I found exactly what is wrong with the case. I noticed that the back is a little farther back, and I have to push in to screw into the holes. I tried pushing the back with all of the cards in and I could see the cards flex into the slots, and It seems that the sound card wasn't fully slotted at the end of the slot, when i originally thought it had to do with up and down placement of the card, and that something was coming out, even though the back did push in. It seems the bend is angled, but maybe it's just due to how the cards sit....
I also heard some cracking type noises which I assume was the plastic of the motherboards on the standoffs, or possibly the cards on their respective slots? I tried to see how much flex there was, as well as if I could bend the metal back this way, but I don't think that was the best of ideas... Everything is running fine it seems, but do you think I should worry about any possible damage? I assume a little pushing shouldn't hurt that much, but just figured I'd ask anyways... I got a little too eager, because I should have waited until I took everything out of the case, and then tried to bend it back... I might even be able to do it with all of my cards out, but there is the I/O slots to worry about.
I will try to get some gloves and take a picture of that card for you as well. I think there is a place near me who might be able to fix it for me. I would like to find out what's wrong with it, and see how hard it would be to fix myself, but maybe it would be best to ask them if they will do it?
Thanks for all of the help, much appreciated.


EDIT: I think I found the problem.. I decided to change slots to see if that would help with seating, and it seems to be better, but there have been no issues at all. This makes me think the original slot might just be bad... I'm a bit sad, because I had thought I tried another slot, but I guess I didn't... All that "testing," freezing, reinstalling drivers, restarts.. For nothing :(.... I should have tried another slot again much earlier... Oh wells we all learn :).

As for the pico, I think I'm just going to grab it and see how it goes.. Thanks.
LakaWaka
Initiate
Initiate
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 11:41 am

Re: Power supply questions

Postby LakaWaka » Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:59 am

I was curious if you had any thoughts on this power supply http://www.hd-plex.com/HDPLEX-250W-Hi-F ... Input.html compared to the PicoPSU?
It seems to connect to a regular power brick (which they use dell as an example which I have one here but sadly it's a 130W brick).
They also have a box that is a 160W power converter for a regular power plug, but wouldn't that not work for a 250W PSU?
http://www.hd-plex.com/HDPLEX-Internal- ... utput.html
There is also the Amazon link here with some more info, with all high rated reviews.
https://www.amazon.com/HDPLEX-Hi-Fi-DC- ... B00J3X7RU6
I like the fact it's a 250W PSU, and I feel I could even use it with a graphics card. One user mentioned he has a ix 3770k, 2 SSD cards, a 750 TI GPU, 2x8 gb of ram, and maybe a couple other things, and got 166W while doing stress tests. This makes it seem that the PICO wouldn't be enough to handle this amount, so maybe getting this HDPlex would be a better options?
Thanks for all of the help, much appreciated.
LakaWaka
Initiate
Initiate
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 11:41 am

Re: Power supply questions

Postby Karlsweldt » Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:52 am

99.9% of power supplies have built-in overload protection, or the power supply could become a fire hazard.
The better grades have an electronic cutoff design, the lesser grades may have only a heat-sensitive click switch (breaker).
Total power from any PSU is how they are rated. If multiple voltages, all combined. Best to go with a unit that has more power than needed, for better regulation and longevity. The device will only take what power is needed.. the PSU will never "push" more than needed.
The majority of computing devices don't use voltages higher than 12 volts. But the AC power pack/charger may be rated at 15 volts or so. You need more 'push' to charge a battery than its rated voltage. The proper charging voltage for auto batteries is 13.8 volts, maximum 14.2. A regulator lowers that voltage as the battery nears its full capacity.
F@H.. to solve mankind's maladies.. in our lifetimes!
Karlsweldt
Mobo-fu Master
Mobo-fu Master
 
Posts: 20672
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:57 am
Location: 07438

Re: Power supply questions

Postby LakaWaka » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:21 am

Karlsweldt wrote:99.9% of power supplies have built-in overload protection, or the power supply could become a fire hazard.
The better grades have an electronic cutoff design, the lesser grades may have only a heat-sensitive click switch (breaker).
Total power from any PSU is how they are rated. If multiple voltages, all combined. Best to go with a unit that has more power than needed, for better regulation and longevity. The device will only take what power is needed.. the PSU will never "push" more than needed.
The majority of computing devices don't use voltages higher than 12 volts. But the AC power pack/charger may be rated at 15 volts or so. You need more 'push' to charge a battery than its rated voltage. The proper charging voltage for auto batteries is 13.8 volts, maximum 14.2. A regulator lowers that voltage as the battery nears its full capacity.


The pico seemed to be one that could catch on fire... which is scary. How does this one look in terms of quality? On their site they say "HDPLEX also has two DC-ATX converters: 160W DC-ATX and 250W HiFi DC-ATX Converters . They both use dual bridge rectifier and top quality components like German Würth Elektronik inductor or Shield enclosed inductor and TI control chip. "
What's a "rectifier" and is dual bridge good? Anything good about that "inductor" also?
The issue is that I realized the regular Power Mobo 24-pin didn't have enough height clearance for the case (when it was on the side, so maybe a tiny bit more), so I figured the Pico would be best. I'm assuming I would run into the same height problems I am experiencing now, unless I could somehow bend the wires to fit properly, which seems doubtful.
I'm going to test my psu again and see if a regular one works... EDIT: From what I tested it is "possible" to bend the wires enough to get the case to shut properly (not sure if the mobo was in the correct position though), plus, judging by my space left, I don't know if the Pico itself would even fit in this case...
I remember we spoke about bending wires is bad, but how much can I bend these wires? Is there also a way I could chop off the top part of the psu plastic part? It seems to be an extra big piece, for no reason, and the lead connections will still be in place.
In this image http://img.tomshardware.com/us/2006/12/ ... -3/atx.jpg you can see the slot for the 24-pin connector and then there's a 20-pin connector in it. Notice how much extra height that plastic piece on the power connector uses up, while the plugs are plugged into the unit already? Is it possible, and would it be a good idea to chop off that plastic part in order to allow more movement of my wires? The only thing I can see going wrong is. 1. The connector release is gone, so how would I get the psu out, besides it being much smaller and nothing to grip (maybe I'll leave some sides to grip, or the center part with the release? 2. Not sure if the wires would stay in their proper spots, but I do not see why they would get loose, as their connection is already complete with the mobo, so extra plastic shouldn't be an issue... imo...
Thoughts? Thanks.
LakaWaka
Initiate
Initiate
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 11:41 am

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest